Breaking Down PM–Vendor Walls

[00:00:02] Speaker A: Hello and welcome to Localization Today, the show where we talk to the people driving innovation in the language and localization industry. My name is Eddie Arrieta, CEO at Multilingual Media. Today we're joined by Lucia Gutierrez, a localization project manager with nearly a decade of experience, and Gabriela Koala, a certified bilingual translator and founder of Beyond Words Linguistic services, or researchers. They've launched a new podcast, PM vs Vendor Team Play for Success, dedicated to tearing down the barriers between project managers and vendors so we can all row in the same direction. Lucia, Gabriela, welcome. [00:00:51] Speaker B: Hi, Eddie, how are you? [00:00:52] Speaker A: Welcome to the podcast world. [00:00:54] Speaker B: Thank you. [00:00:55] Speaker A: We are feel. How does it feel to be in the podcast world? [00:00:58] Speaker C: I hate my voice. [00:01:00] Speaker A: Welcome to. To our world. How about you, Lizzie? Do you also hate your voice? [00:01:04] Speaker B: No, no. I don't personally like it. I don't personally dislike it. I'm okay with my voice. [00:01:12] Speaker A: I think I'm a bit like Johnny Depp. I try not to listen to my voice, try to listen to the. To the guests, but because I'm in the conversations, I've heard the conversation. I'm always very surprised by what we get to hear. Year afterwards, it's like, oh, it's almost like I wasn't there. Like I'm hearing new things because now you're on the receiving end. But this is great. We would love to ask some questions about PM versus Vendor Team Play for Success. So why don't you tell us, Gabriella and Lucia, what inspired you to start a podcast? Was there a particular moment that. The moment where everything clicked and you were like, let's do a podcast us. [00:01:52] Speaker C: Well, for me as a vendor, I had enough of the all the publication on social media, especially on LinkedIn, blaming the PM, saying that all the PM are mean, that they hate freelancers, that they offer bad rates. So I have the chance to work with several amazing PMs and I know that's more that we can see in just one email offering you a new project. So I also had the chance to meet with Lucia in Spain face to face. So we clicked. I think we clicked and we continued talking via WhatsApp. And I said, let's do something new because there isn't. We search and we search and there is no other postcat that puts the PM and the vendor face to face where they can really talk and see what they have on their mind and maybe improve the communication. So that's for me and my colleagues. [00:02:58] Speaker B: Yeah. When Gabrila told me, as she said, we met in, in Toledo one day in Spain. And it was a click, you know, when these things that you feel the connection and you feel it, that is there. And then Gabriela told me, listen, I want to do something. This needs to change. And I'm also fed up of all the hate you can see online. And as if we were enemies when we are supposed to be friends and work together. I mean translators and PMs. So Gabriela proposed me the podcast. At the beginning it was going to be just a podcast, no video. But then we decided to go with video as well and put it on YouTube. And that's how it all started, really. [00:03:44] Speaker A: And of course we'll talk more about this, but you have particular format where you don't have distinct questions for your guests, that everyone gets to answer the same type of questions. Why did you choose that 15 minute episode? And how do you balance preparation and spontaneity? [00:04:06] Speaker C: Well, life is crazy, I know it. So we don't have time for a lot of things. So for example, I do a lot of trips to school and back from school, so I don't have a lot of time to listen to postcards beyond my work. And I, from my experience as a mom, I told Lucia, I think we should do something short to grab the attentions of the listeners, but also to make it perfect for a commute, a short walk, something to really make it matter, not just have another podcast. [00:04:44] Speaker B: Yeah, and also I'm working for a client now. It's on the audiovisual world. And they also changed the format from long episodes to short episodes of around, I don't know, 15, 20 minutes. So I think this aligned really well to Gabriela's suggestion of just having short episodes. And then in terms of balancing the spontaneity with a script, since the beginning, I knew I didn't want a script because I'm not going to follow it. If I am not going to follow a script, why should I get a script? What we have is a topic that comes to our mind. It can be from something we've read online, especially on LinkedIn. LinkedIn. LinkedIn is a great inspiration for us. And then we, we take some ideas of that topic and we discuss them together. So it's just a topic. And then how Gabriela sees it from her point of view and then how I see it from my point of view. That's why our structure is so different to other podcasts. [00:05:51] Speaker C: And I ask a lot of questions because I, again, I want to help my colleagues as much as possible. And she's a great vendor with a Lot of experience. So I ask this is. You will find a lot of questions from a vendor side. [00:06:06] Speaker A: And thank you so much for sharing. This is, this is a great way for others that are trying to also think about unique content, more human content to think about the process. And that's one of the things that we, that we've worked together with other partners here at Multilingual as well. And, you know, next question is regarding something that's also very challenging for us. And you mentioned, you know, LinkedIn is a great inspiration. You get some ideas from there. How do you choose? Because you're saying, you know, there are so much, there's so much has been, is misunderstood in the relationship between PMs and translators and PMs versus vendors. How do you prioritize? Is it just gut feeling? Do you have a process? Do you strategize for the next year? How do you do it? [00:06:57] Speaker C: When we started preparing for this podcast, we made the list with the basic topics and then we started recording some episodes. But people started listening to our episodes and they add new comments, they share new opinions. So we realized that we have to also respond to their needs. So we changed some, some topics in the, in the list. And we also try to balance. For example, we have an episode which is more vendor focused, another one which is more PM focused, another one maybe from both of us, maybe try to share more, I don't know, personal things. [00:07:47] Speaker B: Then it's also funny because sometimes we are recording an episode and in the same episode we say, oh, this is something that we can discuss in another episode. So while you are talking, you come up with more ideas. Or for me, at the beginning it was a matter of, okay, what annoys me from the vendors that I wish they could do in a different way, and what do I read from the vendors that get annoyed by PMs. So the pain points, that was our priority. And then if we come up with other topics or other ideas, then that's also a priority because it's more spontaneous. So we want to record it before other topics that we had to think about. [00:08:27] Speaker A: I can't imagine the realities that are exposed there, but also from the good and the bad, always looking to improve, which is, I assume, the part of it, but there is a lot of that, like you mentioned, there's a lot that's misunderstood in that relationship. PMs and vendors in localization. And this is a lot of what people are going to be listening to when they go to your podcast. Could you tell us a little bit about those misunderstandings that you wish wish to kind of like clarify through your podcast. [00:09:03] Speaker C: As I told before, I noticed that there are some colleagues who think that PMs are only looking for, for cheaper, I don't know, for low rates, for rush deadlines, for short projects. And this is not the truth, at least in many, many cases. This is not the truth because yes, we have some very good and human LSPs out there and also we have some maybe less good LSPs. And in my case last year I decided to only work with human LSPs. So I only kept the. The ones that are really for the industry. And I realized that we have, we have PMs that really give the importance to the vendors. They really care about the vendors. They really know your name. So maybe you should search for the ones that are really human. Okay. And maybe if you don't search for those, you can end up with some misunderstandings. Maybe you will believe that all the PMs are bad. Maybe you should try to see the overview picture. [00:10:27] Speaker B: Yeah. And I noticed from my side that some vendors, they don't really know what's happening in the PM ecosystem. So they think is like the same, the PM does the same. No companies, when that's not the reality, that the PM has a power of decision, which is not always the reality. They don't always get to choose. So there is a lot of misunderstandings there because not everything is explained because many PMs don't rant on social media as much as translators do. Well translators or vendors. So the PM figure is a little bit not shown there, not showcased it. So I think it's something that we should give importance to because PMs are really valuable to any LSP and vendors should know what PMs have on their minds so that we can have a better understanding. So by sharing my point of view as a project manager, I think we can clear the air a lot. And some vendors can fully understand what's happening on the other side so they can empathize with us. [00:11:38] Speaker A: It's a huge communication gap that, that's field especially in where we are today. Right. Where technologies proposal technology is presented as a great tool to add efficiencies into all systems. And it's kind of like humans are great at using tools. It feels like coming back to communications as a conversation is a really important place to begin. Of course you have particular roles like we've talked about already about it. Lucia, you are a pm. Gabriella, you as a vendor. How, how from. From your roles and from those Perspectives from those roles. In particular, how do you approach collaboration and conflict in I. I should say in this AI times, but how do you approach collaboration and conflict without the AI? [00:12:30] Speaker C: Well, I have to say that I'm not a diplomatic person, so I would never do Lucia's job. Never. I can't, I can't imagine because my first. I have. I'm very obsessed with organization. So if someone doesn't follow my schedule, you notice I'm. I'm only asking questions. So for me, the fact that I, I'm asked, asked a lot of question. This is like something that a vendor should always do, ask questions and it will help avoid some back and forth with the pm and it helps to improve a collaboration in. From the beginning, you know, you know, to ask question, you know, to, to express what you really think and today's world, with all the technology, with all the tools, I think that it's up to me to not hug the. No, no, I don't want to do mtpe. No, I don't want to use tools. No, I don't want. I'm. I really don't understand how we can say no when we all know that AI is here to stay. So this is. Again, this maybe sometimes my, my posts, my social media posts are a bit harsh because I don't really understand how today we don't have the willingness to adapt. And the PMS I'm working with, they know that I always want to adapt. Yeah, okay. We stay in the human, the logical balance. But I'm always open to adapt because I'm a vendor and I have to adapt. So I think this helps a lot for the PMs I'm working with. I told you, I. I only kept the ones that are. They really know me. So. Yeah, yeah. [00:14:12] Speaker B: From my point of view, from the PM point of view, I think what is important is to share the information that you've got and is valuable for your vendors. Because I know that sometimes it can be because we are in a rush or because we don't want to overshare, but to me, I prefer to overshare and be told off rather than not sharing everything I've got. Because I think when you share everything, all the information, what the importance of the project, how you feel about the project, when you show your vulnerability and your human side, most of the time you get back humans. Well, I think that's a huge collaboration tool to be human and to show vulnerability so that they understand that there is a human behind the screen. [00:15:03] Speaker A: Ray Dalio would call it Radical transparency. Being able to communicate transparently about things, which makes conversations much more efficient, productive, and much more emotionally stable, if we put it that way, which, you know, in certain cultures, not being emotionally stable, it's a good thing. Or it's something that you seek because, you know, you're so bored not adding value that it's better to live in this kind of like fictional world. But that's another podcast. We're always getting into these conversations. Of course, you're referring to the interactions and how you're approaching them. That's. That's fantastic. You have team play in your, in your, in your ecosystem. What does teamplay truly mean in the localization industry today? And how can we encourage more of it? [00:15:57] Speaker C: It's not into you are not Alone. I remember I published an article for Multilingual with the same title, you Are not Alone. Sometimes we feel that we just have vendors in the projects, just a PM and a vendor in the project. That's not true. A project has several key actors for. From the client to the, I don't know, vendor manager to the PM to the, to the vendor to the freelancer. So they should be, they should be on the same line to have the, the output that we desire. We can't skip a person and play it all by ourselves. For example, oh, I received from a vendor sign, I receive a project. I'm the vendor. I do it like I want. I don't care about the PMs, I don't know email instructions because I know Lucia hates when we don't read instructions. I. I know I might. Maybe even If I have 20 years of experience as a vendor, I just play it along. No, a team play implies all the actors in the, in the project. And if you want to be a successful vendor, you. You have to understand you are not alone. You are part of something. Even if it's. If you're talking with someone that you never seen face to face, you are in, in a team. So that's from me. [00:17:23] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think there is also a disconnection that. In terms of this production aspect and the commercial aspect. So within an lsp, you've got sales people, account managers, and commercial side of things. And then you've got the production side of things, project managers, vendor managers, operations, etc. And many times there is a disconnection between the two departments. And I think we should create awareness of what the production department does and how they are within the industry and within a company so that vendors can also understand that they are part of a Bigger team, not just your PM and your vendor manager, but they understand that they are part of a bigger team that composes of many more people apart from the client, and that also on the client side there are even more people. So we are a huge team, even though sometimes we lose sight of that. [00:18:24] Speaker A: And that's the difficult part of it. Right. Hopefully we're able to find others that can help us along the way. And in some of those instances, these are the type of things that you cannot add an ROI to. This is one of the topics that is also going to come around in our audience in multilingual. We're going to be listening to it a lot. That is this element of what do you get back and why does something like multilingual exist? Giving back to the industry and giving back in terms of advocacy for you, you must be millionaires now by having this podcast. I imagine the sponsorships are flooding from everywhere and you just need to manage all these millions. Do you see these as a form of advocacy or awareness building for underrepresented voices in localization or do you do it for the millions that you're getting in sponsorships? [00:19:27] Speaker C: The Voice and actually one of our future episodes, we don't want to spoil anything, you see, but it's called in the same line the voices in the industry that are not heard. And from my side as a vendor, so you can understand what I am saying about voices is that in some cases we don't give a voice to the. To the vendor. We just ask him her day to. To translate, you know, to localize. But we don't give them the possibility to express themselves. Maybe sometimes the tool you are choosing for the project project is not working. But you have to imagine that the vendor will do the actual work so they are in the position to tell you if the tool is. Is good or not. Maybe the, the vendor has experience more experience in the same. With the same type of content and they have some tips that they can share with the PM. And there are PMs that are very open minded to and very open to, to. To advise to. To change some things. But unfortunately there are also PMs who are, let's say they. We are doing this like this and we can change them and I find it a little bit harsh. So I really want to give a voice to the vendors that know their job. Yeah. [00:20:59] Speaker B: And from my side it's pretty much the same. I feel that project managers are underrepresented in the industry because you go to conferences and you get salespeople you don't get that many operations, you don't get that many project managers. Then you go to linguistic conferences and you get a lot of vendors, a lot of translators, and then again, commercial people from LSPs. Project managers don't get that much visibility. And I think we should put us more on the spot because we are really needed, as I said, and I think we really add value. People should be aware of what we do and what we don't, because that's another thing. I noticed that on the vendor side, there is a lot of confusion sometimes on who. Who does what in an lsp. So creating awareness for them, I think. [00:21:56] Speaker A: It'S also important, and especially in awareness in this specific conversation. We've inferred some of it. You've mentioned it as well. You did some market research. You couldn't see something that was kind of like tackling this and that's kind of like prompted your decision to do this. So could you tell us a little bit more about. About that, the unique gap that you believe your podcast is filling? [00:22:22] Speaker C: Yeah, I realize, for example, we have podcasts for freelancers, for vendors. Vendors. Freelancers in my head does the same, but. And they are talking about their challenges, about the good stuff, about the bad stuff, but they don't have the opportunity to ask the questions. I, I told you before that in many of our episodes, you will hear me, I have a question. And I don't know now Lucia is with that because they don't have the opportunity to. To ask the questions. As Lucia said, they go to conferences and they find a lot of sales people. They don't really actually find the project managers to ask them those questions. So that's, that's something that we didn't find on in our industry where the vendor can ask some very important questions, where the PM can also ask the questions. And I think the gap that is filling it. The communication gap. [00:23:33] Speaker B: Exactly. We always say in our episodes that it's all about communication, and that's the gap we are trying to fill. I'm trying to give some insights from the project management perspective to the vendors so that they can understand better our job and our struggles, so that they can put them on, they can, they can share our point of view. And that's the, that's the gap we saw, really, that there are no actual conversations. And many times we are even considered as enemies where it should be just the total opposite. [00:24:11] Speaker A: Now, of course, the sky is the limit. You see, you've done a few recordings. Now you feel more comfortable than you did before. Right. The first one is probably the hardest hitting published. How did that feel for both of you? Gabriel, how did it feel when you hit publish? [00:24:27] Speaker C: Well, as Lucia told the first one was not even with video because I hate my voice, but I also hate my face. And we actually, the first episode was the only episode that we did it twice. Lucia. I'm not wrong. Yeah. The. After that we only recorded and not even. I have never watched an episode. I, I only do the, the marketing part, the social media part, and Lucia is doing the tech the part. And I don't know the, the feeling is still bizarre sometimes, but I have this urgent need to show some things and to ask some questions that I, I didn't have the opportunity as a freelancer, as a vendor, as a beginner. And I want to, to give colleagues, even Those that have 20, 30 years of experience, experience. I want them to, to give some food for thought. I want them to, to hear some things that sometimes are not so transparent or not so visible in our industry. Yeah. [00:25:39] Speaker B: I remember our first episode. I was in for in front of my fireplace at home with scruffy clothes, just like, oh, I don't care because it's not gonna have video anywhere. So who cares? It had a video, but we decided not to publish a video. So we have to be honest. Gabriella. So, so yeah, it was funny. You, you could feel the butterflies, but I didn't feel them as much. I was just thinking like, okay, if we want it to be natural, then why should I get nervous? It's just natural. It's just another conversation with Gabriela. [00:26:17] Speaker A: That is wonderful. Thank you so much for sharing that. I think those that are in content creation, if in fact in any companies, which is the business that we are in. Right? The business of content creation, even once, once localized. And then there are lots of conversations about that. I hope we never stop feeling the butterflies of what the content is going to do for people and who could listen to. I've always been very surprised when someone reaches out to me at a conference and says like, hey, that was a really great episode you did with X Person. And for that person in particular, that conversation was really powerful. And I think that's what it's probably all, all about in, in, in this conversation. But you are going to be doing more conversations. What are your plans for the next year? Are you going to be doing a recording every month? I hope to continue doing it for the next year. What, what are the plans? [00:27:09] Speaker C: Definitely this year we are in. We are in definitely. And maybe this is one of the things that we chose, only 15 to 20. We can't really say that every episode has 15 minutes. It's between 15 and 20. But there are so many topics. And again, every time we speak, we realize that there are other topics, other topics. So if Lucia is. Win win. And I know she is. Yeah, we are. Because our industry is human, okay? Our industry is about communication. It's about reaching people. And nowadays, from my own personal background, I know that we are not talking about only one origin. We have two reorigines, three origins. We have bilingual persons, my kids are trilingual. So we need. We need to talk, we need to adapt. And I'm sure that, for example, now we are in the AI wave. But in some, maybe next year we will have another wave. So we will have other topics to discuss from both point of view, from a vendor side and a PM side. So in my opinion, we have a lot of work to do. [00:28:26] Speaker B: Yeah, as you said, that is, the sky is the limit. So let's carry on. As long as I see the need, I will carry on doing it. Because if there is a need, then we can be a solution. And we have one weekly episode, not monthly, but weekly. [00:28:42] Speaker A: That's really good. A lot of work. And do you think this is going to turn, you know, all this. Does this content that you're creating into training content, a community platform, Anything. Anything you're imagining right now, frankly, at. [00:28:55] Speaker C: Least from my side, for now, I'm juggling all the work, all the masters around me. And for now, for now, at least, I can't. I can't say to what I. I never want to say. Never. But for now, we. A weekly episode. It's. It's enough. It's good. It's good. Let's say it's good. Not enough. It's good for me. Yeah. [00:29:24] Speaker B: I'm trying not to have any kind of expectation here because I think it will be better for me not to have any expectation. I have to say I'm not fond of teaching, so I don't think I can see turning into some kind of training. At least not on the long term. Maybe once in a while, one video that can be a training, but not on the long run. [00:29:50] Speaker A: Thanks for sharing that. Of course. We are coming almost to an end of our conversation. I want to thank you, Gabriela and Lucia, for joining us today. Is there anything else, any final thoughts you have, anything you'd like to add before we get going here? [00:30:08] Speaker C: My dad said something to me. You have all the tools to learn. You have all the tools to understand a new culture, a new person, at least to understand. Not to know. Maybe to understand. So we have everything. We have tools. We have a new podcast that is a unique. It's PM versus Vendor. So I don't really understand the reason behind the statement. I don't know, I can't do it. I don't know. You have all the tools. So give it a try, I think. And try to also understand that behind the screen there is a human person again. Our industry, it's human. So it's always about the humans. And try to. To understand without. Without, I don't know, having a final. A final reaction. Try to understand and see what's behind that. [00:31:17] Speaker B: Yeah, that would be my keynote as well. We need to start listening to each other again because. Because that's something that I think we've lost a little bit as a society, not only in our industry, but it happens everywhere. And we need to start listening to each other. We need to start having conversations so that we can put on the other shoes, which I think it's something really important. Because when you really understand how the other person feels and what they do and how they do it, then I think that's when a true team gets built. [00:31:52] Speaker A: Thank you so much both for sharing your insights. And that wraps up our conversation with Lucia Gutierrez and Gabriela Koala of PM vs Vendor Teamplay for Success. Thanks for tuning in. Thank you to Localization today. Be sure to subscribe and rate us on Spotify and Apple podcasts and follow us on LinkedIn and Twitter for updates. We'll be back soon with more insights into people that are making our industry stronger. Until next time, goodbye.